Bonus episode - In Conversation with Carol Ann Lee (crime con 2022 live recording)

This episode was recorded LIVE at Crime Con London in 2022.

In this episode, myself and Carol discuss her writing process, how she got to where she is and what she's working on at the moment.

Since starting this podcast, I have been lucky enough to befriend Carol, one of Britain's most prolific and experienced writers. Her books are always throughly researched and are a shining light in the true crime world.

I hope that you enjoy this bonus episode and make sure that you grab a copy of any of Carol's books.
 
Carol's books are available from most bookstores, as well as Amazon.

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The website is currently under construction, but for now, information about the podcast can be viewed on my website.

Did you know that I have a second podcast called 'Crimes That Changed Nations'? Search on your preferred platforms to find it! You can also follow that podcast on Twitter and Instagram.

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Transcript

 Crime conversations. Bring together the biggest names in True Crime. Recorded live at Crime Con London 22, partnered by CBS Reality. For more information on future crime con events, visit crime con.co.uk.

Hello everyone, and welcome to. the In Conversation with Carol Ann Lee event. I'm sure Carol doesn't need much introduction, but we'll do a brief one. So, obviously, Carol is a prolific writer of true crime and history, initially. Um, I'm not sure how many of you are aware that, obviously, you started with history, with Anne Frank and Otto Frank.

And then, in 2000, was it, you published the second book in the Anne Frank... Yeah, Frank series. Interestingly, when I first read Carolyn Leesburg, I was in, um, Aberystwyth doing my history degree. And it was only last year I actually realized it was one of the first books I'd read with my course was the one you wrote, The Story of Anne Frank.

Um, and obviously Carol's best known for her work on the Moores Murders, as well as the White House Farm Book, and most recently, A Passion for Poison, which is, I think, one of your best works. Oh, thank you. So, let's get started. How did you start? What was it that made you realize you wanted to be a writer and to write about those kind of topics?

Wow. Um, well, to be a writer, I knew I wanted to do that from the age of about... My dad was, he'd always wanted to be a writer, never had anything published except a small article in our local newspaper. Um, so when he went and sat down and he was at his typewriter, I would sit next to him and pretend I was writing as well.

Um, and I just wrote short stories. Stories, um, and various terrible things as I was growing up. Um, but I was obsessed with Anne Frank from again, the age of about six years old, and I always knew I wanted to write about her more than anything. Um, and when I was 12, uh, I started writing a biography of Anne Frank, um, finished it when I was about 15 and I actually sent it off to the first publishers of the diary in this country, Valentine Mitchell.

And they sent back a fantastic reader's letter and said, uh, we think you've got great promise, but you know, you're so young yet, um, it would be better if you sort of worked more, maybe, you know, worked with people who'd survived the Holocaust, um, and then came back to the story. And I did what they suggested.

I thought, Yep, that's great advice. So when I went to university, I studied history of art and design. Um, and in my third year, we had to do a work placement and everybody went off to these various fancy art galleries and so on. And I went to the Jewish Museum where they were doing in Manchester, where they were doing an oral history section for survivors of the Holocaust who'd come over.

And I interviewed people there for that. And interviewing those people was Um, it brought home to me the horrors of the Holocaust. Like no amount of reading ever could. Um, I always remember the first guy I went to interview. He'd never spoken to anybody at all about his experiences and he was very nervous about doing it, but he got to an age and he felt that he wanted to do this to make sure it was recorded.

And when I got to his house, I. Missed the bus, of course, um, and I was absolutely soaked through because it was a really, really typical Manchester rainy day and he was so nice and so caring and I just thought, wow, to still retain your humanity after what happened to him. He saw his five year old brother set on fire by the Nazis.

Um, he'd survived one of the death marches himself. And yet he was so kind to me after I just got Um, and yeah, so once I'd interviewed him, um, Bill Williams was a chap who was in charge of the oral history section and I said to him, Oh, you know, I have not got any experience of doing anything. And he said, That's what I want.

He said, I want someone who has a genuine passion. He said, Professional interviewers are great, he said, but there is also room, especially when you're talking to people who have not spoken before, he said. It's best if it's somebody who's interested from the heart. And I interviewed, I think it was about six people.

Um, and it was amazing. It really was. Um, so I did that, finished my degree. Uh, I was working in Waterstones and everybody who worked there wanted to be a writer, everybody. And we all used to say, I'll be back. I'll be back here in, uh, five years time and I'll be signing my book. Um, and I'm not sure if anyone else did.

They probably did, but I was definitely the first person to go back and do just that. Um, so that was great. Um, yeah. And. It was coming back to the Anne Frank idea. Then I just thought, you know what? I am going to go back and do this. Um, so I wrote a couple of introductory chapters, which I don't do now.

Justine, I know that's my editor and, um, sent it off to an agent, uh, literally picked her name out of the right as an artist yearbook, literally just went. Okay, I'll try her. Um, and much to my surprise, she rang me about a week later and said, I think you've got something here. There were no biographies of Anne Frank at that time, I have to say.

Um, but interest in the Holocaust was really high. There was Schindler's List had come out and, you know, various films like that. So I happened to sort of, it sounds very crass, but I wrote the book at the right time. People were talking about the Holocaust then. People were writing about it and making films.

Um, and I got in touch with Anne Frank's cousin, Budi, um, who she writes about in her diary. And he became like my grandfather. We got on so well. It was unbelievable. I stayed with him and his wife so many times. And I have to say, if it wasn't for him, I probably wouldn't have a career now. I think everyone has.

Sort of a fairy godfather, or what he wouldn't like to be called a fairy godfather, but, um, you know, somebody who really helps them at the start if they're lucky, and I was very lucky to find him. And he got in touch with Penguin Books and said, basically, if you don't publish Carol's book, because there was another lady also writing a biography, he said, we will take back the rights of the diary from you.

So they were like, okay. So, yeah, so I'm not sure he would have done, but the threat was enough. So, always good to start your career with a threat. Um, so that was it. And then how I got onto writing True Crime was actually, although I wrote more books on the Holocaust, it was because I was so puzzled, is probably the best word, by the fact that the people who, um, Made the Holocaust possible, not Hitler and the people at the top, but the people who were sort of running the railways, running the concentration camps, I couldn't understand how they could work in such an environment, send, you know, men, women and Children to their deaths and then go home and be perfectly good parents to their own Children, be good fathers, be good mothers.

And that really fascinated me. And I realized Or I thought really what it is, is it's about killers who they compartmentalize their lives. They are able to do that in a way that those of us who don't have that in them are not. Um, and so that really got me interested. I started thinking, do you know what?

And I remember after my book about Otto Frank came out, I said to my agent, she said, what are you interested in doing now? And I wasn't really thinking about it. I just said, well, I'd like to write a biography of Myra Hindley. And she went, don't do that. Don't do that. She said, because people will think you admire her.

She said, and the thing is true crime back in sort of 2010 or 2009. It was kind of like, almost like the dirty secret of publishing. Um, like I said, I worked in Waterstones and the crude true crime section was always shoved away in a corner. You know, you'd have a huge crime section, but then true crime was always hidden.

And you kind of go up feeling like you're asking for a dirty mag or something. Um, so yeah, so at that time it was very different. Um, but I realized actually I did want to write about Hindley. Um, But more, I also wanted to bring in the victims stories, the victims family stories, the policemen's stories, because although there were quite a few books on the Moore's murders by that point, nobody had really talked about the victims lives because they were young.

You know, they'd all had at least 10 years on the planet, which is nothing in terms of what Brady and Hindley took from them and their families. But it means... Everybody knows, you know, the smallest child has a personality, they get up to things. All these children had lives, you know, and I wanted to write about them.

I wanted to know who these children were and who their families were. So, that was a hugely long answer. That was it? So, obviously anyone who's read your books will know how important the relationships you make with the people you're interviewing. How important would you say that is to your writing and how does it help you in your process?

Uh, when it works, it really is fantastic. Um, there have been a couple of things that haven't worked out for me. You know, there are always people, obviously, who do not want to talk. Um, and it's very strange because you do get A subject where there are many, a case rather, where there are many victims, um, and many victims families, obviously, and family members.

Um, and somebody will be, I wouldn't say delighted you approached them, but, you know, when you talk to them and say, this is my idea, they go, wonderful, I really want somebody to do it like that. I want someone to remember the person my mother or, you know, my son was. And then you'll get another member of the family coming and saying, I don't want anything to do with you, how dare you.

Um. And so you have to kind of work out for yourself. Is this the right thing to do? And you can only ever go on what you feel. Um, and I know when I wrote the book about Myra Hindley, um, I wanted to interview Alan Bennett, who's Keith Bennett's brother. And he had said he'd been interviewed by so many, or he'd been approached by so many people.

He had done some interviews. And he just said, it'll, it'll turn out like the rest. I'm sorry, kind of thing. Very polite. No, thank you. And he read the book and he got in touch straight away and said, I would have talked to you had I known. So, um, That must have been so rewarding at that point. Yeah, it really was.

And David Smith, who was the man who turned in the Moore's Murders, he was Myra Hindley's brother in law. I got in touch with him. And, uh, he became, he and his wife became really good friends. Um, but the first thing he said was, Absolutely not. No way. You're just another stinky journalist and I don't want anything to do with you.

Um, but his wife called me on the sly and said, I want you to write a book. Um, so I went over to meet him and he was convinced I was from news of the world and was out there to do a dirty job, really. Um, Anyway, he soon realized that I wasn't, and he spent a whole night being horrible to me, but, um, he was so nice to my son, who was really little at the time, and his wife was lovely, that, and I thought, you've got a story I really want to tell.

And in the morning, I got up, because I was staying at their house, and he went, right, when do we start? I was like, yes. And yeah, that was an amazing book to work on because he'd never really told his story before and people had such a skewed idea of who he was, you know, he stopped the moors murders and yet he was hated.

He was vilified by people. And I think really, that was because they couldn't get a Brady and Hindley. So they went for the next best thing, which they thought was Hindley's brother in law. Um, but honestly, the city of Manchester has so much to be grateful to him for. And they really do. Thank you. So, you've written so many books and obviously they're quite, they're published every few years, you know, you've got books coming out.

Is there any that you'd say you're particularly proud of, or, and is there any that were particularly difficult to write? Uh, there was one that was difficult to write, but I can't explain why. Um, then there was another one, I would say the difficult to write, um, most difficult to write one, that people may know better is the somebody's mother, somebody's daughter.

And it's that thing of approaching families and how they react. So, um, I had family members who were really welcoming and were like, Oh, absolutely. What can we do? And what, you know, and also survivors, people who'd survived his attacks were very welcoming and wanted to tell their story because it hadn't been told properly before they felt.

Um, and then other people who were, You know, in no uncertain terms, certain terms did not want to know at all. And it is that thing where you think, what do I do? Do I go ahead with this book? Um, and ultimately, like I said, you can only do what you think is right. And I thought, no, nobody has written a book just about the women.

And I want to do that. So it wasn't. This sounds awful. I'm I apologize to my publisher at the time. Um, it wasn't quite the book I wanted to write because I wanted to go much deeper But for various reasons I couldn't do that, but I'm still glad I did the book. Yeah the book I'm most proud of I don't know probably I suppose the Anne Frank book really because it was my first and You know, lots of people said oh you won't get that done Yes, I will.

And ironically, today is Anne Frank's birthday as well, yeah, and it's Keith Bennett's birthday as well. Yeah, so that's, uh, perfect timing for the dates and things. So, um, obviously the most recent book you wrote about is about Grameo. Yeah. Um, and it was actually true crime, um, crime cons. book club book. It was, yes.

And it went down very well. So how did you get your idea for that? What was it? How did you discover Graham's story? Well, I've kind of always known about him because there are certain sort of stories that you kind of grow up knowing and once you become, you know, interested in true crime and you start, especially Publish an entry crime, um, different people approach you and so on and you kind of watch more things, um, And I, I did remember seeing a film when I was quite young that was called The Young Poisoner's Handbook, Um, and it, it wouldn't get made now as it was because it was a kind of a comedy take on the story.

Um, But it really stuck in my mind, the story stuck in my mind, and Graham himself was such, for want of a better word, an unusual individual, um, that I thought, actually nobody has written a book about him since all the papers have been released at the National Archives, so, um, I went to the National Archives and it was just a treasure trove of information, there was lots about his time in Broadmoor, um, and his time in prison, less on his time in prison, but certainly An absolute treasure trove of his time in Broadmoor, uh, which was, you know, worth publishing for him, you know, for his story, but also for what we know about society at that time and Broadmoor, and that's something else that I do try and do, which is to, you know, put an individual in context, their story in the context of what's happening in Britain at that time, or obviously Europe in the case of other things.

Um, but he was, he really was, The most unbelievable sort of young serial killer you can imagine. And I can quite well see how they managed to make it into a comedy. But the thing is, when you read about the effects that his actions had on the victims and the victim's family, it's horrific. I'm sure every one of us in here has suffered from stomach aches at some point.

Well, this was nothing that you can imagine. I mean, the victims kept, you know, that some of them survived and they wanted to kill themselves because It was so painful what they were going through. It was horrific. It really was. So, but it is an unbelievable story. It really is. Yeah, it's one of the first true crime books where you actually come to understand him.

Yeah. In a different light. Not that you feel necessarily sympathy towards what he's done, but you can understand his life. And how he got to where he was essentially. And he was let down too. By the system. He really was let down by the system. The catalogue of errors. Constantly. Yeah, it really was. And everybody paid, including Graham.

Yeah. So, um, what's your next project? I was, I hinted to a few people only that you might want to tell us about it. So my next project is, um, a little bit further back for me. Um, it's 400 years old crime. Um, and it's the story of the Pendle Witches. Thank you for that. You're writing the right book. Yeah, so, um, I've always been interested in the story.

Um, I'm from the north and love Pendle, love the area. And this story has been told several times in books. Um, and I have to say without sounding horrible, and I'm sure I do it's always nearly always been told by men. Um, but I don't necessarily want to do it from a feminist viewpoint. I want to tell these women's stories in a way that they haven't been told before.

So I'm going back into archives again. Um, there has been a lot of research done and It's very interesting to see the kind of the dynamics between the women themselves and the people who brought them to trial and why that was done. You know, these were two families essentially, um, and the whole thing blew up.

There were two warring families who had originally been good friends, um, and then the landowners became involved. And it ended up in the most horrific tale you can imagine. Um, and these women were originally doing good within their society, within their neighbourhoods. Um, but that eventually saw them executed for witchcraft.

Um, and I'm trying to do a lot of research into different areas that people have not done before. So... It's very interesting. It's the best book to work on. It really is. It's such a great excuse to have witchcraft stuff everywhere in my house. So it's quite strange because I've always thought if a burglar ever came to my house, God, would they leave quickly?

Because it always used to be all true crime stuff. And now it's... Everywhere is witchcraft. We'll do two more questions then. I know there's a couple of people in the audience who are fans, so to speak. So if there's any questions anyone specifically wants answered, just pop your hand up and we'll come to them.

So we're all obviously into true crime. We're all interested in it. So what advice would you give to someone who maybe wants to write a true crime book as well? Do it. That's the first thing. You know, a lot of people say, Oh, I'd like to write a book. I get so many people saying that. And the first thing is, just get on and do it.

Write the book. You know, read about your subject. Have you got something different to say? Because that's always the key thing with me when I come to write a book. There's no point in writing a book about, you know, it might be a subject that people think they know, but I need to think, no, actually, I can tell you something new.

Um, and so if you've got something new to say about a case, then I think. That's a very good start. Um, one thing I would say, I mean, it's very different now because people can self publish and it's no longer looked down on, which is great because it can be incredibly hard to get published. Um, but I would say to anyone, if you're wanting a career in writing, then definitely find an agent, a literary agent, because my God, a good one is worth his or her weight in gold, and they really are.

Just do it. And don't let anyone put you off. That's amazing. We've spoken to a few people on Satcommer. We've spoken to a few people, haven't we? Self published books. Yeah. I'm planning on bringing them with them next time now, as well, to hand out to people. Did you want to ask your question? I've got two questions.

Which water centres were you working in? I was working at St Anne's Square in Manchester. Oh. Was that affected by a farmer's end point? Uh, I'm not sure if that was because I'm not sure if it closed down then I'd left because that was the Manchester bombing you're talking about back in the 90s, isn't it?

So that was a slightly strange area. Yeah, it was the smaller bookshop because there was the big one on Deansgate wasn't there? Right, but I used to regularly go through Manchester on Waterstones. Oh, right. But I don't remember the true crimes section. No, well you won't because it was tiny. It really, really was.

Oh, right. waterstones would, I think, match quite well. Right. Yeah. There has been a time when it's been much larger and easier to see. But you'll find more chance of finding mind, body and spirit. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So that's the book sellers, the High Street book shops, they haven't bought Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, I'm totally behind them. They do a fantastic job. And the next one is more difficult. We might want to edit this out. But having read part of, if not all, every word of your White House farm book, I'm left with a very, very serious question, which is that in the first half of that book, You give reason after reason after reason why he is clearly innocent and he wants to be convicted.

Then in the second half of the book, you, I won't use the word, well, I won't use the word fantasy except for that point. You seem to say he did do it, and I just see a disconnect. I think it just takes the whole picture, doesn't it? Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. I did try to present the story as fairly as possible.

Um, and I interviewed as many people as I possibly could. Uh, and certainly the people who I interviewed who knew Jeremy, and especially the people who knew Sheila, nobody believed that Sheila was guilty. And I think the fact that he was found guilty, he is still in prison. Um, and what, you know, I always said I didn't want to talk publicly about the case again, because no, no, no, it's fine.

Um, just because I don't, I think I've talked enough about it now. And I think it's fine for somebody else, either people who believe is innocent or guilty to have, you know, have their say. Um, but I think if you look into the case yourself properly, um, For me, there's no doubt, and the courts think so, and they continue to think so, you know, more than 30 years after he's been imprisoned.

So, if ever he's found, you know, to be a miscarriage of justice, I will be the first person to hold up my hand and say I got it wrong. But I don't think that's going to happen. Sorry, there's another question. Sorry, sorry.

There's also a podcast, by the way. There is. I'm the host of that podcast. Because that is Yeah, yeah, it really, I, I started my podcast in January of 2020. Um, believing, believing that, um, I thought he was innocent. I passionately believed he was innocent. And two weeks after starting my podcast, having done in depth research.

Not just Carole's book, I'd read sources, I'd gone back, I'd read, researched everything. I can no longer believe Jeremy Batman's innocent, I believe he's 100% guilty. Um, right, we've got no more time, unfortunately. So, I'd urge you all to go and get a copy of Carole's book, it is fantastic. Thank you for doing this today.

Thank you all enjoyed it. Thank you very much, everyone. Thank you do with your writing. Aw, thank you.

You've been listening to Crime Conversations, recorded live at CrimeCon London 2022, partnered by CBS Reality. For more information on future CrimeCon events, visit CrimeCon. co. uk